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INTERVIEW WITH TOREY HAYDEN ~ author of Ghost Girl, which is Gateway's non-fiction book of the month for April

Torey – let's start with a simple question – which do you enjoy writing more, fiction or non-fiction?

I prefer fiction.  The difficulty with nonfiction is that your characters, setting, plot, resolution, etc. are predetermined for you and very little creativity is involved, other than coming up with ways of saying things that avoid getting you sued!  Fiction is fun because it is creative and it’s freeing, because if you get stuck, you can just throw it out and go some completely different way.  I never dreamt I would end up a nonfiction writer, but success creates its own kind of shackles.

There must be a temptation for you to make a story (fiction) out of something you've experienced whilst working with children with special needs or in special education – can you comment?

First, it is important to recognize that all memoirs are, to a degree, fictionalized accounts of events.  This is one of the things which distinguishes memoirs from autobiographies.  Anyone who tell you they are not is not being truthful.

There are several reasons for this – some ethical, some moral, some legal, some financial and some creative. 

Ethical and moral reasons include such issues as the fact that there is a fine line between sharing a worthwhile story and exploiting the people involved.  Most of the individuals I write about are minors and not able to give their consent themselves nor did they have the choice about whether I worked with them or not.  Another ethical issue is people’s rights to privacy.  Most of the events portrayed are of a very personal nature and most of the people have grown up, changed, moved on.  It’s important not to hurt or demean the people involved now.  Another issue is that my books give my personal account of the events that take place from my own perspective.  Sometimes I remembered or interpreted events differently than they did, but this doesn’t mean their view wasn’t also valid.

Legal issues involving nonfiction stories can be very serious, because of course I am writing about real people and not everyone I portray is portrayed in a  positive light.  Some people do not want to be in the books.  Some take serious exception to what I say.  I do get signed consents in as many instances as possible.  I also allow the major characters the opportunity to proof the manuscript when possible.  However, sometimes there is no way get around the legal problems except to composite characters or leave the characters out altogether, which then of course requires writing as if they were not there.

Financial issues that affect the storyline are usually generated by the publisher.  Publishers are in the business to make money and consequently, there are just some things they will not publish.  For example, my “home” publisher (because that’s who I started out with) is my American publisher.  For many years they have refused to buy books unless they have an American setting, whereas I have lived in Britain for many years and done much of my work here.  So, one of the fictionalizations I’ve done is to transplant certain things I did here in Britaininto an American setting.  This has suited the publisher and has had the extra advantage of protecting identity by changing location.

Creative issues are those which make it a “good story” – i.e. a narrative which hangs together, makes sense, has a beginning, middle, end, etc.  All these are necessary to make the book  comprehensible, a fulfilling experience for the reader and something the publishers wanting to publish.  Real life seldom has this kind of coherence, so there is always editing and interpretation, even in strict autobiographies.

So, there is quite a lot of fictionalization in nonfiction memoirs.  Does this make it fiction?  I don’t believe so for two reasons:  1) all the material is still taken from my personal experience and is about real issues, real people and real situations I have confronted.   2) There are two kinds of truth  - literal and essential.  Literal truth is concrete where everything is exactly as it appears on the surface because there only is the surface. The other kind of truth is essential truth.  This is “real” truth, the abstract truth where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.  This is the truth I am interested in when writing my books.  It does not matter if it took place in America or the UK.  It doesn’t matter if the child’s name is Jadie or Susan.  It doesn’t even matter if the child is a girl or a boy.  The essential – the universal –  truth is in the child’s experiences, in her perception of those experiences, in my experiences and in my perception of those experiences.  It is this which speaks to people.  And it has nothing to do with what her real name was or her actual location.

Ghost Girl reminded me of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest in the way that each child had a unique and endearing character. I found that Ghost Girl changed my life in a similar way in terms of how I view such people – all they really need is someone like you to open up to, it seems. Sometimes we simply don't listen – is that how you see it?

In a way, yes, I suppose.  We tend to get very wrapped up in our own little subjective sphere.  I’m a big believer in awareness, in the importance of developing awareness, so that we are a little more open to what is going on around us.  We need to do that first before listening becomes easy.

The other big factor, in my opinion, is the general tendency of a lot of people to live in the future or in the past instead of right now.  They miss all of “right now” because they are never at home in “right now”.  They are always chasing goals or fretting about what’s already happened and they can’t change.  Again, it’s almost impossible to listen if you are not here.

You seem to find writing easy – by that I mean that you have an easy, readable style. Do you feel you were born to write or do you have to work at it?

Definitely I believe I was born with it.  I have always loved to write and started writing from almost the first moment I discovered how to hold a pencil.  It’s an almost orgasmic state for me.

In your opinion, what would be the main priority? To work with these children or, by writing and publishing your experiences, to get your message across to the people who can make decisions that might affect these children?

I’ve long since made the decision on this priority, in that my real gift is, indeed, writing.  There are actually many, many people out in the field right now who are every bit as talented, hard-working and committed as I, if not more so.  The difference between them and me is that I can write.  I have a voice.  If I stayed in the classroom, I would perhaps directly affect perhaps 600 people over the length of an average career.  That’s significant and very worthwhile.  However, by writing I can affect far more.  The books are in 31 languages, have been top-10 best sellers in twelve countries and have allowed me to provide inspiration to so many young educators who have gone out into the classrooms in my name, as well as doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, and so forth.

On the other hand, I have always kept active in the field.  Throughout my writing career I have also continued to work with vulnerable children and/or adults.  I was instrumental in establishing the Childline charity in my part of the country in the late ‘80s and have worked actively with them for many years.  I am now an active member of the NSPCC.  I have also spent time as a Samaritan and am currently an active advisor for the Citizens’ Advice Bureau.

As a young teenager, I was sexually abused by my violin teacher at grammar school in Gloucester. My parents, bless them, were naïve enough to believe that withdrawing me from those lessons would make the problem go away. Mercifully, for me, it did, and I like to think I'm a fairly rounded, well-balanced family man, father of three, married for forty years this year. However, the experience left me with mild homophobia – I can't ever accept that homosexuality is right, and I sometimes get frustrated by "do-gooders", no matter how well-meaning their actions are. You must have battled with a lot of similar experiences – and seen some horrific things – how do you cope?

By seeing all of us as much more alike than different.  And believing no one chooses to be unhappy.  So if someone is doing something that causes pain, my assumption is that he does not have the insight to do differently.  This turns the issue into a teaching matter, as opposed to a policing matter.

There is an in-depth discussion of this issue on my message board which you might find interesting here:

http://www.torey-hayden.com/cgi-local/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=67;t=000013;p=1

How  does your typical day pan out now you're settled in Wales? It must be so different to a full-time job teaching children with special needs.

It largely involves black sheep.  I’m not so sure that is vastly different from a classroom of special needs children!

You've made me laugh and cry with your tales – do you have more experiences you've not shared with us yet?

Yes, but I’m up against legal problems with it at the moment, so don’t know when it is going to happen.

Mind you, you here in Britain are a bit late to the party, so you still have three or four books to come which have already been published elsewhere.  So stay tuned!

Any plans for more fiction titles this year or next?

I’d love to, but I’m not so sure my publisher feels the same!  Meanwhile, I am currently writing a textbook with a colleague in America.  This will be centred around my teaching methods and using my books to prepare new special ed. teachers.

Finally, thanks for Ghost Girl – and thanks for being a part of Gateway!

Thanks for the interview!

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